George and I returned to questioning Leonardo on how he had gained entrance to the hangar without proper security clearance credentials. He stated that his benefactor had been immediately recognized by the captain of the Delta Blue Force guards, who had saluted him smartly, but was very friendly. Others who know about such things later told me that this scenario could certainly have happened as stated if the benefactor trusted the visitor and had really been instrumental in the development of the project and was also a long-time acquaintance of the captain of the guards.
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I should point out that I tape-recorded the entire interview with Leonardo Sanderson on a small micro cassette, as I always do when conducting serious investigative interviews, without his knowledge. This was not for purposes of impeaching any inconsistencies in his statements, but rather to validate his statements later at my office, where the recordings were rigorously analyzed on a Dektor PSE Psychological Stress Evaluator, a machine that, in the right hands, is very good for establishing deception criteria. My results as to Mr.
Sanderson was asked to describe the hangar and its location, which he did.
General Miller was Commander of the Air Force Audio-Visual Division at that time and claimed to have been taken for a ride on a flying saucer by a crew of aliens who picked him up while he was camping in Afton Canyon near Barstow, California. He escorted my friends into a small room filled with filing cabinets that contained photographs and films of UFOs. General Miller, who has now passed away, wanted to help make the flying saucer story public. Hamilton , p. He made sketches for us of the birds that George and I had no knowledge of or data on, including the Aurora, which he carefully described as being able to ride on its shock wave.
Besides its large internal SRlike afterburning jet engines, the Aurora had a methane-fueled pulse thruster designed into the top of the aircraft, with the methane periodically injected through many perforations in the outer fuselage skin. Leonardo even described the soot-like engine exhaust that coated the fuselage in that area, diminishing as the pulse burn zone faded toward the rear of the vehicle. Unlike Lazar, his report smelled good, even on the conventional side of the hangar exhibits.
I suggest that if Leonardo was lying, he was the most aeronautically gifted liar I have ever encountered. The Aurora rumors were only beginning in , and no one, including the futuristic-thinking Mark McCandlish, had floated any conceptual renderings out for review until mid, all of which Leonardo described there for us in January Leonardo was, and George will bear me out on this point, methodical in his detailing of the conventionally propelled aircraft the saw. He claims that, while he noticed the large black curtain dividing the hangar, he had not given much thought as to its purpose, thinking it was to reduce the space in order to better exhibit the advanced aircraft hardware systems on display.
Indeed it was; I made an effort to check everything Leonardo had said, and the Weather Bureau verified that the temperature was over degrees Fahrenheit at Norton AFB that day. As he walked up to the exhibit ropes, he stated that the air became decidedly colder, but he did not know why; there was no air movement that he could detect. In his initial description of the vehicles, he said that they only crudely resembled a flying saucer in the sense that they were all circular in shape. He described them as resembling an angel food cake with a cup turned upside down on top, black in color, including the bottoms, with no lettering or numbers anywhere on them.
He described Baby Bear as being 20 to 22 feet in diameter, with an overall height of about 12 feet. Momma Bear was about 60 feet in diameter and had a height of approximately 30 feet. Poppa Bear was estimated at feet in diameter and around 50 feet in height. When asked about windows and any indication of landing gear, he replied that there were none. However, he stated that all three vehicles had thick glass or lexan-like clear plastic hemisphere-shaped bubbles with what appeared to be remote-controlled three-dimensionally gimbaled video cameras inside.
He described the domes as being very similar to those in a casino, but clear, as opposed to mirrored or dark.
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There were five dome-covered video cameras mounted on each vehicle; four of the units were spaced equidistantly around and about halfway down the side of the cupola, or top of the craft, with the fifth camera being perched on the very top. He stated that there were no apparent running or collision warning lights on the vehicles.
He continued pencil-sketching while he talked about the positions of the birds on the floor and stated that each vehicle contained a submarine-like door hatch with reinforcement ribs visible on the outside and a round 7 or 8 inch circular turn handle recessed into the doors and that the doors conformed in contour with the spherical shape of the domes, or cupolas.
He further stated that there were approximately people in the hangar, mostly gathered around Baby Bear, listening to a speaker standing on a slightly raised lectern with an elevated TV monitor. A videotape loop presentation without sound showed the bird jerkily maneuvering just above ground level and then rapidly shooting up into the air. He thought the film had been made by some kind of fast tracking camera, as the craft rose vertically and disappeared from view in just a few seconds. Leonardo described the individual making the presentation as an Army general name not given with three stars.
The rest of the viewers were mostly admirals, generals, and a few civilians, whom his benefactor said were from the Senate Intelligence Committee, there to consider covertly funding a run of 50 of the Poppa Bear size vehicles as manned nuclear weapons delivery systems. His benefactor told him that just 50 units would be required to replace the entire US strategic triad, as they were totally invulnerable to any counterattack and could deliver a knockout strike with zero warning time. In conjunction with SDI, they would make America invincible.
The benefactor told Leonardo that the fleet of 50 units, each containing hundreds of nukes, would only cost about a billion apiece, but there were many other considerations affecting their deployment as a military first strike or counterstrike defense system, and that this first-view presentation was on direct orders of President Bush. However, I contacted Senator Cranston to inquire about this, and, as Burt and Hal are well aware from personal visits by Senator Cranston, this is not correct, unless one wants to consider that Senator Cranston is denying the truth for security reasons.
Senator John Glenn looks a lot like Senator Cranston, as do many others. Leonardo never stated that he had spoken with Senator Cranston, so it could well be that this was a case of mistaken identity. Leonardo claims that the general giving the presentation made the following claims concerning the technology:. Leonardo additionally stated that on the video presentation, when the vehicle was moving slowly, its turns, unlike those of an airplane or helicopter, were not smooth, but were actually jerky, and changes in direction occurred instantly. No sounds were audible on the video, but it is not known whether it contained a sound track.
We queried Leonardo about where the ARVs were constructed, and whether or not there had been any discussion about direct technical assistance or support from the aliens, and even where the aliens might have come from, or what their agenda might be. He responded in the negative on all of these issues. Leonardo then stated that the Baby Bear, besides having its pilot compartment entry door fully open, had a 5-foot wide by 7-foot high panel completely removed from the side of the angel food cake-shaped lower section, exposing its entire bottom interior. He said it looked more like it had been assembled by scientists who were not facile in prototype development of aircraft or space vehicles like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo capsules he had seen at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum.
Leonardo mentioned this rough finish issue at least a half dozen times during our initial briefing, and it would make good security sense that, in order to keep a project like this truly secret, the scientists who back engineer the UFOs would also build the initial replication vehicles.
As Leonardo continued his constant explanatory sketching, we urged him to try to remember every detail of what he had seen. When asked how he could see that the central column extended to the bottom of the sphere, he stated that a walk-up stair and platform for the viewers was erected to allow the people present to see into the top of the sphere area slightly looking downward through the submarine hatch-size pilot entry door.
Leonardo then described for us the very large coil that completely encircled the outside of the protruding, spherically shaped crew compartment. Leonardo described the dimensions of the coil-like device as approximately 20 to 25 inches across the slope side, 18 inches in height, about 20 inches wide on its bottom, and 15 inches on the top, and feet in diameter.
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He stated that it appeared to be constructed of the same transparent green colored transparent glass or plastic as the lower capacitor pile of pie-sliced copper plates. He stated that from his position on the ground, back about 20 feet from the lower edge of the vehicle, he could see that the outer winding was followed inward by another row of winding turns, but he could not see any deeper.
The Jury should try to imagine how you would construct or bend such a coil keeping it perfectly aligned over nearly five hundred turns, according to calculations. It is a very mean engineering construction feat, I assure you. He stated that four standard looking ejector seats were mounted on rails affixed to the central column, and that the back cushions were positioned vertically without rearward tilt. The seats were horizontal, but there was a tray at the bottom of each seat that he thought functioned as a footrest, based on its dimensions and distance below the seat cushions.
Leonardo stated that only one of the seats had any control devices. He could not tell if the handle had a rotation axis or any up-down motion capability. The ball was in two halves, with the top hemisphere slightly smaller in diameter. To repeat, Leonardo stated that the Baby Bear ARV was silently hovering, with just a barely-perceptible rocking motion. He also stated that the control handle atop the ball appeared to move automatically every so often, apparently to counteract any perturbation or motion of the vehicle.
None of the vehicles were tethered in any visible way. This lever also had a sophisticated handle with switches embedded in its grip structure. Further, the lever had a bright red stripe painted down the side of it. Leonardo further stated that a disc-like container, measuring about 2 to 3 inches thick by 9 feet in diameter and firmly attached to the central column, was positioned about 4 or 5 inches below the foot rests attached to the ejection seats.
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He could not tell what, if anything, was in the disc-shaped container, only that it appeared to be ruggedly constructed. Returning to the bottom area, Leonardo described that there were numerous large 1 by 7 foot blue colored cylinders in a radial pattern with one end abutting the central column. They were strapped onto retainer plates that, he reasoned, were adhesively attached to the pie-shaped plates stacked inside the green glass or plastic, as the only bolts were those that joined the outer panels together.
Leonardo concluded his interview with the statement that there was a large 3-foot high accordion-like, or multiple scissor-like, extendable robotic arm with a large two-point grip clamp on the end. From its design, he believed that it had two axes of motion: up and down, and side to side.
See ARV illustration. Leonardo also said that all three of the ARVs were crudely painted with what looked like a very thick dull black paint for which no functional explanation was given. He again repeated the part about their detailing as being done by scientists and not engineers or aerospace assembly technicians, because he could actually see the marks of a wide hand application brush left in the paint.
I believe that much of what he described, if not all, can now be understood in light of my long investigation into all possible aspects of this very believable and scientifically sexy story.
There are now so many things about it that it fills a book—the following thirteen chapters, to be exact. One was a telephone technician who was sent to a remote hangar at Edwards North Base in to repair a phone. Upon approaching the hangar, he was approached by two men in suits who appeared to be guarding the hangar. Unlike Leonardo, Lazar identified his employer, supervisors, and benefactors who were responsible for providing the information he related.
Also unlike Leonardo, who has remained reasonably secretive during the last fourteen years excepting his interviews with George, Burt, me, and possibly Hal , Lazar has been deliberately seeking celebrity and notoriety about his alleged UFO drive knowledge at S-4, and for a profit!
Lazar has, to my direct knowledge over the last fourteen years, spread his S-4 Papoose Lake tale far and wide. Some examples are:. There is one glaring error, besides his untraceable academic and purported Los Alamos C.